Standard Poodle Color Breeding Red and Brown Standard Poodles

BIJOU STANDARD POODLES


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© 2009 Bijou Standard Poodles

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~ Red and Brown Poodles ~

Apricot, Black, Red, Brown pups

Shades of Red


Red, Apricot, Cream Hair from a poodle


Red, Apricot, Cream Standard Poodles



Light Red Hair.....................Red Hair.................Darkest Irish Setter Red Hair


Shades of Red, light red to our Darkest Red

Hershey Thumbnail ....Hershey Thumbnail ... Hershey Thumbnail ....Hershey Thumbnail
"Zoe" - Lightest Apricot................................."Ivy" - Light Red ........................"Conan" - Medium Red............"Blaze" - Darkest Red

Breeding for Dark non-fading reds is difficult as there are a few basics to understand first.
Blue and Silver in a Red pedigree introduces fading gene.
White in a Red Pedigree causes "mismarks" .
Brown in a Red pedigree causes Liver and Pink nosed Reds.
Black in a Red Pedigree does not improve the Red Colour. A good Black can improve Pigmentation.
Red is dominate to cream and apricot.
Apricot is recessive to Red
Cream is recessive to Apricot, Red
Red (all red pedigree) x Red (all red pedigree) = Red (small chance of apricot, cream)
Red (red, apricot) x Red (red, apricot) = Red, Apricot (small chance of cream)
Red (with apricot, cream ) x Red (with apricot, cream) = Red, Apricot, Cream
Apricot x Apricot = Apricot, Cream
Cream x Apricot = Apricot, Cream
Cream x Cream = Cream
Black (cream) x Cream = Black, cream
Black (with apricot, cream) x Apricot = Black, Apricot, Cream
Black (with apricot, cream) x Red (apricot, cream) = Black, Apricot, Cream (small chance of red).
Black (with red, apricot, cream) x Red (apricot, cream) = Black, Red, Apricot, Cream
Black (with red) x Red = Black, Red (smaller chance of apricot and cream)
~ There is a Colour Chart at the bottom of this page ~
Breeding Red to Red you can get all creams, all apricots or all red or a mix depending on the pedigree behind the parents.
Breeding Red to Apricot you can get all creams, all apricots or all red or a mix depending on the pedigree behind the parents.
Why do we get all the shades of red in a litter ?
It depends on the pedigree (what is behind the parents).
A red can be Genotype (visually) dark red and never produce dark red. (know the pedigree you are using)
A red can be Phenotypical red and although not dark red, will produce dark red (usually is a product of line or inbreeding COI of 6% or greater)
Cream and Apricot are a recessive to dominate Red. Two recessives bred together can not produce a dominate.
Recessives can not CARRY a dominate colour (ie cream and apricot can't "carry" the red gene)
Red is dominate to Cream and Apricot. Red can produce Cream and Apricot.
Apricot is dominate to Cream. Apricot can produce Cream. Cream can not produce red or apricot
This means that if you have recessive colours in a pedigree, they will diminish the dark red gene and the potential to get dark red pups.
For a true dark red Poodle to "maintain" their colour and produce dark red pups, there are a few ways to do this.
1. The pedigree must contain only red (first 3 generations especially) with no dilutes such as cream and to a lesser extent apricot.
2. The Pedigree can contain recessives, but must be bred back (line bred or inbred) onto a "dominate" dark red ancestor (COI of 6% or Greater)
3. The Pedigree can contain recessives (1/4 of pedigree), but must be bred to a proven genotyped "dominate" red.



Shades of Brown

Hershey Thumbnail .........................Hershey Thumbnail ........................Hershey Thumbnail
"Brownie" - Silver-Beige over 1 year of age........."Cocoa" - light Brown (milk chocolate colour) 9 years of age......."Hershey" -Dark Brown at 8 years
(We are not using Browns that turn Silver or Silver Beige in our program)

Hershey Thumbnail ...Hershey Thumbnail
(photos lightened to show the grey hairs)
Darkest of browns, may still get grey hairs through the coat, but the overall appearance of a brown should be that of a brown coat.
It is still very difficult to produce a bown with a clear brown coat with no grey hairs.
In some cases grey hairs may be concentrated in "areas" such as on the tail, on the back, on the legs, on the rear.
Browns also have a tendency to get reddish in the summer. This is because brown when bleached by sun gets red highlights.
Blue and Silver in the brown pedigree (especially in first 3 generations) will cause a brown to silver up.
White in the Pedigree will cause "mismarks" to happen.
Our "ongoing" goal for the brown colour, is to produce dark brown "clear" coats that hold their colour.



Litter of Red and Litter of Brown puppies to see the difference in colour.


A Bit about Noses (often referred to as "Points")

Hershey Thumbnail...Hershey Thumbnail.... Hershey Thumbnail...Hershey Thumbnail
Pink nose........................................... Winter nose.............................................Liver Nose.............................. Correct Black nose

~Pigmentation~ when referring to dogs, means the colour of their eye rims, nose and lips.
When Poodle pups are born they "may" have no pigmentation (pink noses) or "may" have black noses and pigmentation.
Generally within a few hours or days the pigmentation will fully fill in to be either black or liver or incompleted (ie winter nose).
Red Poodles can mature to have Pink noses, Winter noses or Liver noses genetically.
(I'm using the word "nose" in place of Pigmentation as that is where colour is most noticable)
Pink nose (aka Dudley) is almost void of any pigmentation (flesh colored)
Poodles especially reds can also have Winter Nose.
Winter noses are missing some areas of pigmentation, usually only in the winter season when there is less sun.
In summer when exposed to the sun, the skin darkens (tans) to completely fill in with clour on the winter nose.
In summer even the Pink Nose will either completely fill in, or partially fill in, with colour (partially fill in colour is what we refer to as winter nose).
Winter noses will usually completely fill in during summer with more exposure to sun, or sometimes respond to diets containing Iodine via sea kelp
(Too much of a suppliment, can be harmful, so keep this in mind when using them).
Liver nose is a light brown colour and nose, gums, lips, eye rims will all be liver colour.
Red Poodles with Pink noses will usually have Pink, Liver or even incomplete pigmentation
around their eyes and lips, which is VERY undesirable for showing and for breeding towards the breed's ideal standard.
Red Standard Poodles should have black pigmentation but it is acceptible for them for show to have Liver/brown pigmentation.
Brown (or cafe) Standard Poodles genetically can't have Black pigmentation, it is genetically impossible
Brown Standard Poodles will have Brown pigmentation (nose, lips, eye rims).
Poor pigmentation on browns would be really light brown or even pink pigmentaion (usually because of red/apricot found in their pedigree).
AKC Poodle Breed standard states:
Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark AMBER eyes.
In the Red/Apricots while dark brown eye color and black pigmentation is preferred,
liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable.
We are breeding to have dark pigmentation towards the breed standard's "IDEAL".
VetGen Lab can test for nose colour (points/pigmentation) along with coat colour.


What does Mismark Mean ?

Hershey Thumbnail .......Hershey Thumbnail ....Hershey Thumbnail
Red Puppy with white mismark (should disappear) .........Brown Puppy with white mismark (will not totally disappear)........... Red Puppy with white mismark (will not totally disappear)
Ocassionally pups will be born with a white toe(s) or white fluff or patch on their chest.
These areas are called mismarks and is very common. Depending on the size of the area
the white areas may disappear completely or diminish upon maturity.
This does not decrease the value or price of our puppys.
Some people find these areas very distinquishing and want this unique marking on their puppy
but we can not guarantee these areas will remain. Some breeders are breeding "FOR" this
and showing them in UKC as Multi Color Poodle or Parti Color Poodle (abstract division).
Breeders showing AKC or CKC often will just dye this area to show them and breed them
and this is partially why mismarks have continued and even increased, to this day.

Bijou Standard Poodles has been instrumental in the discovery of a DNA "test" for the "spotting" gene in Poodles.
What this now means is that there is a DNA test available to determine if dogs carry the parti or mismark gene.

The gene involved is the variably expressed S (white spotting) gene.
• SS (two dominant alleles) would not have or show white spotting
• SSp (one dominant, one recessive allele) would indicate they may show a little bit of white markings but carry for spotting
• spsp (two recessive alleles) has the excessive white/spotting.

Spotting is recessive, therefore both parents must be carriers for this gene in order for it to occur in the litter.
Therefore, poodles that are genotype SS would not have or show white spotting
(if there were white markings this would have likely occurred due to a random occurrence, but is not related to the gene),

Eye Color

Hershey Thumbnail........Hershey Thumbnail
"Sophie" Puppy Eye Color is green ...................................................... "Sophie's" Adult Eye Color ~ Correctly ~ Dark Brown

Colour of the Puppy's eyes may be blue, green, yellow when young (just like human baby's change)
Eye Colour will change to Amber, light brown or dark brown colour and could even be a pumpkin colour.
AKC Poodle Breed standard states:
Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark AMBER eyes.
In the Red/Apricots while dark brown eye color and black pigmentation is preferred,
liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable.
We are breeding to have dark pigmentation towards the breed standard's "IDEAL".



THERE IS NO DNA TEST FOR THE COLOUR RED.
(Do not be mislead)
There are only DNA tests that will test for "yellow" (which is red or cream or apricot or white as a unit) such as DDC Vet or
Apricot/Cream/Red/White as a "unit" such as Vetgen Labs.
Or HealthGene Lab.
Red is not distinguishable from it's "dilutes" (Apricot/Cream/White) at this time.


(Shades of red)
What this means is that if you test "Positive" for RED (Yellow) that your dog may not produce red at all
but may just produce only cream or only apricot or white.
Remember simple well known fact that two dilutes can not produce a dominate colour.
Red is dominate to apricot and cream.


Dilute Gene
DD = not fading
dd = fading gene
About the D Locus that now labs are testing for.
D locus is thought to be associated with the dilution or lightening effect of the solid colors Black, Yellow (meaning Red or Apricot) and Brown,
The dd genotype (genes dog carries and is not visable) results in the diluted/fading effect.
So that means if you "see" a poodle that is Apricot, Red, Black or Brown and carrying "dd" gene that that poodle is said to fade and
Carrys the gene for fading.
A dog carrying DD does not guarantee the dog is a real Red or real Apricot.
All it is said to guarantee that what ever colour you see that that "individual" is said to not get lighter.
BUT...that is NO guarantee that the puppy they produced won't "carry" the fading gene "dd" UNLESS BOTH Mom and Dad are not carriers of "dd" gene

The best guarantee to getting a red that is a "real" red is to see mom and make sure she is "visually" a real red by looking at her.
See the dad or recent video of dad or mom and make sure that "visually" they both appear dark real red with black noses.
OR that one parent is dark red and the other parent is a dark apricot or light red with known dark red behind both parents.
Of course there are a couple more ways to ensure dark red pups, but I'm not giving up all my secrets to gaining great colour :)
Now there are more to genetic make up that effects fading but this the most advanced we are for testing as of today.
To date the DDC lab is the ONLY lab testing for this gene...and they told me that to date (2009) no poodle has tested positive for having the dilute gene...hmmm ???
Suspicious of this finding I went one step further and I sent in DNA sample (at my own expense) and had DDC Lab colour test a black that had faded out
and also DNA from a brown that faded out dramatically to a cafe.
The results came back that both of those faded poodles were not carrying dilute.
OK if that is true then why did they fade... you can draw your own conclusion on the validity of this test for yourself.


(Brown,Red,Brown,Red standard poodle puppies 3 days old)

These colour DNA tests are only beneficial if you are trying to test:
If a black poodle is carrying the brown gene or "dd" (silver,cafe).
If a black poodle is carrying recessives of "cream/white/apricot/red" as a grouping called "yellow"
If a brown poodle is carrying "cream/white/apricot/red" as a grouping referred to as "yellow"
If a "visual" red/cream/apricot/white is carrying black or brown/liver pigmentation referred to as "points"
But an educated, good breeder will know what colours their dog could carry, by just reading their pedigrees (hoping they are true)
These DNA tests are only made possible because of breeders such as ourselves
who contributed their pups hair sample and DNA to help establish a data base for the brown gene.





How do Your Dark Browns and Rich Reds keep their Colour?


© 2009 Laura Turner



Hershey Thumbnail ...Hershey Thumbnail

Dark Red ................................. Dark Brown


I have always enjoyed studying pedigrees, color charts and predictions.
So when I decided to concentrate on breeding for only beautiful brown and rich red it only came naturally to me to first spend
YEARS researching colour genetics for the Poodle, the brown and red gene, studying pedigrees and photos,
tracking what seemed to be dark red and dark brown puppies and checking back to see them as adults
to see if they had lines that kept their colour into adulthood or faded out to light Red, Apricot or even Cream
or in the case of browns, stayed a rich dark brown, chocolate milk brown or went grey.
As a result I have a MASSIVE data base of photos and pedigrees that form my study guides.

Click here to read more about the ~ History of Reds ~
Once I found those lines (pedigree) and individuals that remained dark, I bought them.
Then I completed every Conclusive Health testing to enusure they were healthy.
Then I DNA tested them to make sure they were not carrying the dilute gene.
Then I accomplished their UKC championships to prove they meet the breed standard being Structurally correct.
Then I work towards a working title to ensure and prove that mentally they were intelligent and capable.
I then breed the darkest richest colours together who are out of colour bred lines for at least 3 generations, preferably 5 generations
because some recessives can carry up to 3 + generations through dominate colours.
This means browns that have ONLY brown and black pedigree with no silver, blue, cafe, cream, apricot, red, white
This means reds that have ONLY Red and with no silver, blue, cafe, cream, white, brown
I will use black with our Brown program but ONLY if the black doesn't carry silver, blue, cafe, cream, white, apricot, red
I will use black with our Red program but ONLY if the black doesn't carry silver, blue, brown, cream, white.
Of course along with colour they also needed ideal health, temperament, conformation so it was a long journey to say the least.

Getting great colour, sounds simple doesn't it ? Well the concept really is simple and easy to follow on "paper".
Reality is that it took years to find dark Brown that had a solid brown/black pedigree.
It took years to find a dark Red that had a solid red pedigree (with none or only small amount of apricot).
Of course ALL our dark colours also had to pass health testing, have proper structure, be intelligent and have the titles to back these claims up.
Something most people told us would be impossible to achieve, and yet we are one of the VERY few Red Breeders doing it all.
We have VERY high standards in what we breed so we will only provide the best to our puppy people and for us to keep.
We avoid ALL Eurpean lines as they are all apricot or reds that faded (just do a search for yourself)
We also avoid ANY Eurpean "Brown" Lines as most of the ones we have documented have silvered out too much for us.
A good rule of thumb is that it will not be a real dark red unless there is Majestic within the first 3 generations or is line bred
with a COI of 6% or greater onto a dark red ancestor.
Because there are so few breeders breeding real dark reds that have passed all OFA Clearances the gene pool
is not big enough to achieve colour, type, temperament with a COI of 6% or lower in 2010.
Until more breeders focas on colour, (as type and health are already established) this will continue.
Breeding with "diverse" lines will not produce real dark reds that hold their colour.
Hopefully more red breeders will begin to understand how to scientifically breed,
so that the dark red gene pool does increase and we can still keep the type, temperament and health.


People always ask how we do it. I have not done anything. Breeders before me did all the ground work.
Dark Red Breeders before me knew that dark red had to be sustained and so they cemented the colour.
All I had to do was the research to find those lines and use them to their advantage.
Then I followed my knowledge and common sense and not the trendy breedings being done.
There were years when everyone believed red aided the brown gene and that blue aided the red gene.
However this was totally illogical giving what I knew about colour genetics, so I followed my own path and here I am today.

Basically and very "overly" simply stated,
Hershey Thumbnail
I breed brown to brown (both carrying no dilutes)

Hershey Thumbnail
or black (Carrying brown with no dilutes) to brown

Hershey Thumbnail
and dark red to dark red with black noses (pigmentation) or

Hershey Thumbnail
black (carrying red and no dilutes) to dark red
in order to keep our pup's colours dark and to not fade and keep dark Pigmentation.

If you want to be as assured as you can be, that they puppy you buy is a real red, then make sure both
parents are reds and not cream, white, apricot.

That being said, all poodles will fade to a "degree" at some point in their lives.
Reds "may" get a shade or two lighter and browns may get bits of grey or light areas through their coats as they age
we just try to breed to not have them fade a great deal and also to prolong that fading from happening.
We are able to tell our puppy people at birth, what colour pups we have and what they are likily to mature to be like in colour.
I do not mislead people. Even though some pups may be VERY dark at birth to the "novice", we know the difference
and we will share that information with our puppy people.
Obtaining and producing Dark Colors was a VERY long process and is still ongoing,
as not only do our Poodles have to have colour, but they have to be healthy and have CALM temperaments.
Now many years later we have and are able to offer to you, the "Complete Package".


RED STANDARD POODLES:
Physically: Our Red poodles tend to be 21"-25" in height and also 45-55lbs.
I have introduced a different line in hopes of getting more height on our reds but as of 2010 this seems to be our average.
Reds are refined, "pretty" in their looks and VERY athletic, running like the wind.
Reds we keep, are dark Irish setter red which we breed together.
We will usually get dark Irish setter pups with correct dark brown eyes and jet black nose, eye rims commonly referred to as "points"
in our litters but they may have a white toe or white fluff on their chest *Read more about colour.
Photos of our reds just do not do them justice, as they are so much darker than they appear in video.
Every colour will fade at some point and at some degree but we hope to prevent or prolong that from happening by
Select breeding. Our Reds can stay Irish Setter Red or they can lighten to a dark apricot with age.
We have seen dark red pups from other breeders go almost completely white if they have not had a red pedigree.
Best guarantee that your puppy will stay red is to see both of the parents current photos and videos.
Our reds are FAST... they are the Lance Armstrongs of the poodle world for sure. Lots of wind and can
out race our browns in a game of keep away or tag. Our Reds would LOVE agility or rally.

Temperament : Well if you have seen Velcro on shoes... you will know what I mean when I say
our Reds are like velcro dogs. They want to be everywhere you are, even in the bathroom.
Reds are total devotion, dedication and adoration and huge cuddlers.
All our poodles have calm laid back temperament. NO hyper pacing or barking.
Males are more laid back content to rest on your feet
Females wish to be on your lap and also wish to know
where everyone in the household is and what they are up to.

BROWN STANDARD POODLES:
Physically: They range from 24"-28" and 45lbs-85lbs.
Our Browns tend to range in size really depending on the parents
Our Browns tend to be more "course" than what you would typically see at a dog show and for sure
have loads more muscle and boning than the average chicken boned poodle you may meet.
Our Brown poodles are DARK brown. This is very difficult to have achieved and took years.
Our pups "may" get a sprinkle of grey hairs through their coat when they get older and may even lighten
on their muzzle or tail area when they age. There really is no guarantee on colour even though we do
DNA test to ensure our poodles do not carry the fading gene.
*Click to read more about Colour

Temperament : Our Browns are sweet natured and calm.
All our poodles have calm laid back temperament. NO hyper pacing or barking.
Our Browns love to be with you in the same room or on the couch beside you cuddling during a movie.
I use my browns as my jogging partners as they are taller and longer limbed able to do 6km with me
without any stress or strain and they actually look forward to it and enjoy the activity.
Browns and all poodles will actually do any activity that pleases you as that is just the breed's nature.
Over the years I have done Tracking (ALL dogs love this sport), Schutzhund, Obedience, Rally, Pet therapy,
Agility with my poodles and all performed well. I have tried doing feild with my poodles as my good friend was
training her tollers at the time, but other than getting my poodle pups really birdy I never did get past the force fetch to excel.



RED AND BROWN POODLE CO LOR CHART

Vetgen lab had a bit of a colour chart that I have modified to make it easier to understand.
In this colour chart the colours "red, apricot, cream" are grouped together as "yellow".
Please keep in mind that recessives can not produce a dominate colour.
Although when born and while young, pups will appear darker and will fade to their true colour by 1-2 years of age.
cream x cream will not give you red or apricot
Cream x Apricot will not give you red but will give you cream and possibly apricot
Apricot x Apricot will not give you red but could give you cream and apricot
Red x Red can give you red, cream, apricot
Of course there are other colours that these poodles can carry and produce
but for this colour chart we are only doing red (aka yellow) and brown
which do not carry anything other than Yellow, Brown, Black.
Line up the sire to the dam to see what resulting pups you could obtain.

SIRE: across

DAM: below

 

Vetgen

black with no hidden colors

 

 

BBEE
I

Vetgen

black with hidden yellow

 

 

BBEe
II

Vetgenblack with hidden Brown

 

BbEE
III

Vetgen

black with hidden yellow and Brown

BbEe
IV

Vetgenyellow with hidden black

 

BBee
V

Vetgenyellow with hidden black and Brown

Bbee
VI

Vetgen

yellow with hidden Brown liver noses

bbee
VII

Vetgen Brown with no hidden colors

 

bbEE
VIII

VetgenBrown with hidden yellow

 

bbEe
IX

VetgenBBEE
I

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

All
Black

VetgenBBEe
II

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Yellow

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Yellow

½ Black
½ Yellow

½ Black
½ Yellow

½ Black
½ Yellow

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Yellow

VetgenBbEE
III

All
Black

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Brown

¾ Black
¼ Brown

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Brown

½ Black
½ Brown

½ Black
½ Brown

½ Black
½ Brown

VetgenBbEe
IV

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Yellow

¾ Black
¼ Brown

9/16 Black
¼ Yellow
3/16 Brown

½ Black
½ Yellow

3/8 Black
½ Yellow
1/8 Brown

¼ Black
½ Yellow
¼ Brown

½ Black
½ Brown

3/8 Black
¼ Yellow
3/8 Brown

VetgenBBee
V

All
Black

½ Black
½ Yellow

All
Black

½ Black
½ Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Black

½ Black
½ Yellow

VetgenBbee
VI

All
Black

½ Black
½ Yellow

¾ Black
¼ Brown

3/8 Black
½ Yellow
1/8 Brown

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

½ Black
½ Brown

¼ Black
½ Yellow
¼ Brown

Vetgenbbee
VII

All
Black

½ Black
½ Yellow

½ Black
½ Brown

¼ Black
½ Yellow
¼ Brown

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Yellow

All
Brown

½ Brown
½ Yellow

VetgenbbEE
VIII

All
Black

All
Black

½ Black
½ Brown

½ Black
½ Brown

All
Black

½ Black
½ Brown

All
Brown

All
Brown

All
Brown

Vetgen bbEe
IX

All
Black

¾ Black
¼ Yellow

½ Black
½ Brown

3/8 Black
¼ Yellow
3/8 Brown

½ Black
½ Yellow

¼ Black
½ Yellow
¼ Brown

½ Brown
½ Yellow

All
Brown

¾ Brown
¼ Yellow

 




Litter of Red and Litter of Brown puppies to see the difference in colour.

Here are some helpful links on colour as well:


Story of our Browns
Story of our Reds
All colours in poodles
All colours in all breeds
Color Genes in the Poodle by John Armstrong
Color genetics by John Armstrong
Parti Poodle Colours
Multi Color Poodle Club Colors


Hershey Thumbnail...Hershey Thumbnail
Blue Standard Poodle ...............................Black Standard Poodle...........................Silver Standard Poodle

Hershey Thumbnail ...Hershey Thumbnail...Hershey Thumbnail
Brown Standard Poodle........................................................................Cafe or light brown ............................................................Silver Beige Standard Poodle



Red Standard Poodle................ ............Apricot Standard Poodle............ Cream Standard Poodle


Shades of Red from Light to Dark Red








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